Reporter: You have always opposed the reconstruction of Yuanmingyuan. In response to the recent restoration of some buildings in Yuanmingyuan, you submitted a manuscript to People's Daily Online, saying that you were "very angry!" Why?
Ye: Among the numerous cultural relics and historic sites in China, I'm afraid nothing attracts the attention of Chinese people more than the Yuanmingyuan in Beijing! The reason is simple: she is a monument to the national humiliation of the Chinese nation and a painful mark branded on the back of every conscientious Chinese descendant. We keep her, that is, we keep the "crime scene" of the invading robbers, and let her become a silent accusation against the imperialist aggressors forever! Because of this, the site of Yuanmingyuan has become a sacred and extremely precious cultural relic. As long as we keep the original appearance, we have every reason to apply to UNESCO for inclusion in the "human heritage" list.
However, although the heated debate has been going on for more than ten years, it seems that reconstruction theorists and partial restoration theorists have never understood: what is a cultural relic? Cultural relics are non-renewable historical, cultural or civilized heritage, and their significance lies in the historical witness value. The site of Yuanmingyuan strongly witnessed the history of the Chinese nation's "weakness of the country and bullying of the people". For the people of China, the Yuanmingyuan site is a permanent alarm; It is also an indispensable textbook for all mankind, including the descendants of the country that caused the accident, so that they can understand that destroying the wisdom of others will be nailed to the shame column of history. It is in this sense that the site of Yuanmingyuan belongs to the cultural heritage of all mankind. After all, a royal garden is valuable, but now the ruins she left behind are priceless! Therefore, Article 22 of the Law of People's Republic of China (PRC) on the Protection of Cultural Relics promulgated in 2002 clearly stipulates: "If all immovable cultural relics have been destroyed, the original site shall be protected and may not be rebuilt in the original site." This is the national law! We should uphold the dignity of the law. Some people turn a blind eye to this real national law solemnly passed by the National People's Congress Standing Committee (NPCSC) in 2002, but emphasize the planning of Yuanmingyuan Ruins Park made by Beijing Municipal Government in 2000 as "national law", which is inaccurate. Local government regulations that have not been passed by the National People's Congress cannot be called national laws.
Reporter: You always say, "Ruins are also a kind of beauty!" Although some people disagree, I find that you have always insisted on this view.
Ye: This involves the identification of cultural relics. The precious character of cultural relics lies in the originality and authenticity of their history, and any addition or change based on subjective will means destruction. There are not many things left in the site of Yuanmingyuan, but this is history and the real situation after she was stolen. Moreover, the nature and value of cultural relics in the site are not determined by the amount of residual materials, but mainly by her historical witness value. In a sense, the less remains of the site like Yuanmingyuan, the more tragic the silent accusation effect will be! This is the beauty of the ruins. Lu Xun said that tragedy is to destroy something of value for people to see. Nowadays, the ruins left by the "Garden of Ten Thousand Gardens" destroyed by the international invading army in those years are a huge and shocking tragic beauty! Some people say: Isn't it a pity that so much land is wasted there? Don't! It is because she is "big" and "barren" that she is so shocked. When I was studying at Peking University, I often went for a walk in Yuanmingyuan. Every time I see the ruins of the West Tower standing alone shivering in the desolate wilderness, an old man who has been mutilated silently complains in front of my eyes! A few years ago, the restorer tried to restore the Han Jing Concert Hall near her! Fortunately, God has eyes, so that the rich "cultural relic phalanx" under the ruins of Hanjingtang can speak out and scare them away! Judging from this incident, I am really ashamed of those friends who are keen on restoration: they don't even have the minimum knowledge of cultural relics aesthetics! Imagine if the original environment around this "historical old man" (that is, the desolate "wilderness") is destroyed, is there any aesthetic effect just mentioned? No wonder 1999 During the "two sessions", many members were shocked and opposed when they heard that the Yuanmingyuan would be rebuilt. Within the range of members I am familiar with, 49 people soon signed the proposal against reconstruction.
In fact, as long as you dig carefully, there are many valuable remains in the Yuanmingyuan ruins. The abortion reconstruction of the original site of Hanjingtang is a convincing proof. After the original site of Hanjingtang was broken, it was found that the original appearance of the building foundation was still preserved under the soil, including valuable column foundations, thresholds and steps. This matter deserves reflection. At least it shows that although we have many Yuanmingyuan experts, they only stay in the study of previous drawings and written historical materials, and ignore the underground deposits. In this case, how to make a "scientific decision" through "expert argumentation"?
Reporter: Some people think that local reconstruction will not affect the nature of the site of Yuanmingyuan. What's your opinion?
Ye: The Planning of Yuanmingyuan Ruins Park promulgated by Beijing in 2000 correctly defined the nature of the park as a "relic". But at the same time, it is not contradictory to stipulate one-tenth of the site reconstruction plan. At the "two sessions" of 200 1, after hearing the news, members all expressed their disagreement, thinking that one tenth was a decimal in proportion, but the absolute figure would be very large. In this way, is it not to make the desolate and quiet Yuanmingyuan ruins nondescript! Of course, due to functional needs, some houses can also be built appropriately for office, recycling art exhibition, sand table model display, tourists' rest and so on. But the principle should be: first, don't build a house on the original site; Second, avoid magnificent antique buildings. As for the reconstruction of the original site, in view of the great controversy at present, "it is better to calm down first and let nature take its course." At that time, 43 members signed the proposal with this content, most of them were prestigious figures in society, which reflected the voice of society to a considerable extent. So it's not surprising. Later, when four related units in Beijing sent people to communicate with me, one of them, a comrade from Beijing Planning and Design Institute, said frankly, "Mr. Ye, personally, I totally agree with you. The problem now is that the government has made a decision and got the approval of the superior. " I immediately replied: "Before China people's awareness of cultural relics has generally awakened, anyone may make a decision that will leave regrets for future generations: not only am I in my thirties, but I still feel that there is nothing wrong with it, even the top leaders have recognized it! At that time, everyone regarded it as an outdated fortification, but did not realize that it was an important cultural relic with great historical witness value. As for Yuanmingyuan, before I went abroad for the first time in the early 1980s, I had been looking forward to reappearing its former glory one day. At that time, there was indeed a lack of cultural relics awareness, or cultural relics awareness had not yet awakened. At present, the debate about the site of Yuanmingyuan also involves this issue. Therefore, the central idea of our proposal is to "shelve" one-tenth of the redevelopment plan for the time being and wait for the opinions to be roughly similar. Now you can do some uncontroversial work, such as cleaning up garbage and illegal buildings and basic mountain water system. " But later, although the state promulgated the above-mentioned Law on the Protection of Cultural Relics, the ground-breaking event of Hanjingtang site still happened. Later, the project was moved to Qingyan, Kyushu, and spectacular sites such as buried pools and bridges and culverts were excavated, but the damaged bridges and culverts were repaired. This is the destruction of the website!
Reporter: What do you think is the fundamental problem about the reconstruction of Yuanmingyuan?
Ye: First of all, it reflects that the public's awareness of cultural relics in China has not yet generally awakened. Due to well-known reasons, our people's awareness of cultural relics lags behind the international community for more than 30 years. Needless to say, since the 1940s, there have been more than a dozen international conventions on the protection of cultural relics, such as the Rome Declaration, the Venice Charter, and the Paris Convention ... The latter is the World Heritage Declaration Convention signed in Paris in 1972. China didn't join this convention until 1985, and didn't begin to declare it until 1987. But at this time, the understanding of cultural relics is limited to a few people. My first article on the protection of cultural relics, ruins are also a kind of beauty, was written in 1988. Nowadays, restorers often suggest that 1980 should be signed by 1580, which doesn't explain the problem: if I had been consulted at that time, I would have signed it; Some of them were signed at that time, but they are not signed now. And if I initiate an anti-repair or 10% repair now, I will definitely get more signatures! Why do you see it? In the period of 65438+February 65438+April this year, People's Daily launched a survey, and 72. 1% people opposed the restoration, and only 20.7% people were in favor of the restoration. What do you say if I take out the opinion that comrades clearly expressed their opposition to reconstruction to Zhou before his death?
At present, Chinese people's awareness of cultural relics is awakening, but it has not yet fully awakened. At this moment, it is easy to go into a misunderstanding: sleeping in a relaxed state, knowing protection, but not knowing how to protect it! The result of protection is often destruction. Recently, the Beijing Municipal Government issued a new policy on the transformation of the old city, which verified my point of view: the original statement of "transformation of the old city" was changed to "transformation of the old house". The difference between the two words reflects the great change of the Beijing municipal government's concept and policy towards the ancient city of Beijing, and it has suddenly gone out of the misunderstanding: in the past, one building was demolished to pursue a new look, and it was changed to one building after another, and it was treated differently according to specific conditions. This is in line with the "gradual and pieced together" transformation of the old city that I emphasized in your interview last year. This is something to be happy about.
Secondly, it must be admitted that the management of Yuanmingyuan site is much more difficult and complicated than other royal gardens, because it involves multidisciplinary knowledge, not only cultural relics and ancient buildings, but also art, aesthetics, literature, philosophy, environmental ecology, humanities and culture. It is necessary to make a real scientific decision after repeated scientific argumentation.
Third, experts and scholars with different attitudes are welcome to participate and listen to different opinions. The decision-making process should be as scientific and transparent as possible. Two years ago, on the eve of the "two sessions", I went to Yuanmingyuan as a member of the Chinese People's Political Consultative Conference to learn about the situation and was warmly received. But in the meantime, I asked to see the speech record of a seminar held by the management office not long ago, but was flatly rejected by the then director of the management office. I still don't understand his reason.
Fourth, we should listen to the collective voice of society. About three years ago, Zong, deputy director of the Yuanmingyuan Management Office, admitted in an interview with tonight's Evening News that at first most people were in favor of reconstruction, but now it is the other way around, and there are a little more people who oppose reconstruction. What about now? People's Daily poll shows that China people's awareness of cultural relics is rapidly awakening.
Fifth, National Cultural Heritage Administration is the highest administrative leading body in the national cultural relics management, and its opinions and decisions should be strictly respected.
Reporter: Can you condense the opinions expressed this time into two sentences?
Ye: In view of the huge differences between the two factions on the restoration of Yuanmingyuan 10% site, I still think the best policy is to "be cold and cold, let nature take its course" to avoid making mistakes again and again and becoming lifelong regret.
Ye Profile: 7 1 year-old, currently a researcher at China Academy of Social Sciences, a member of the Chinese People's Political Consultative Conference, a member of the Chinese Writers Association and Dramatists Association, a director of the China Foreign Literature Society, and a president of the National German Literature Research Association.
Only partial repair, not reconstruction —— Interview with Wang Zhili, former vice president of China Yuanmingyuan Society
Reporter: How do you view the construction of Yuanming New Garden in Hengdian, Zhejiang?
Wang Zhili: To talk about this issue, we must first understand the reconstruction, restoration and imitation of ancient buildings. Building Yuanmingyuan in other places is undoubtedly imitation, not reconstruction and restoration. We can conclude from many conditions such as history, geography and climate that the so-called Yuanmingyuan to be built in Hengdian, Zhejiang Province is an imitation. For example, simply from the requirements of climate for buildings, northern buildings focus on cold protection and sunrise; Southern architecture focuses on sun protection and ventilation, and the basic theory of architecture is different.
Since it is an imitation, it is not a cultural relic at all, nor is it the Yuanmingyuan that people want to see in their hearts. I think the funding gap of more than 654.38+08 billion is also a problem. Even if it is built, it is just another place for business tourism.
I am opposed to copying Yuanmingyuan in another place, but I think it can be restored in the original site. What needs special explanation is that China Yuanmingyuan Society has never advocated the complete reconstruction of Yuanmingyuan. In 2000, the relevant government departments stipulated in the master plan of Yuanmingyuan Ruins Park that "the mountain water system, plant arrangement and buildings of110 should be restored." The reason why some buildings are proposed to be restored is to compare with the existing ruins and leave most of them to the next generation to decide whether to continue the restoration.
Reporter: Some scholars have proposed to face the site of Yuanmingyuan directly. What do you think of this?
Wang Zhili: I have heard a lot of remarks about protecting the site, such as "the site is of greater educational significance to the people", "touching the site is a blasphemy and betrayal of history", "letting the site lie there quietly" and "the site is also a kind of beauty" and so on ... Simply looking at these views, it is easy to arouse people's sympathy, but it is divorced from the reality of the Yuanmingyuan site. The actual situation of Yuanmingyuan site is that it has been destroyed for a long time since the Qing Dynasty, and there is no chance to lie there quietly. In the early years, the China Yuanmingyuan Society was initiated by the architectural community because the relevant departments were discussing whether to build a hotel in the original site of Yuanmingyuan. Some farmers dig mountains and fill lakes in order to develop production.
Some scholars have repeatedly put forward examples of the intact preservation of foreign sites, but there are many complicated situations abroad, which must be determined according to specific conditions. There are many precedents for repairing sites abroad. For example, the ancient city of Poland restored after World War II. Of course, there are some cases of preserving relics, such as the Colosseum in ancient Rome, but Yuanmingyuan is a big garden covering more than 350 hectares and has its own characteristics. Moreover, what we propose is to restore the Yuanmingyuan, rebuild some buildings and restore its landscape, rather than rebuild a Yuanmingyuan.
Reporter: Why do you want to restore the mountain water system, plant configuration and some buildings in Yuanmingyuan? How to treat the relationship between restoration and ecological protection?
Wang Zhili: Restoring the landscape system has two major meanings. First, the original landscape of Yuanmingyuan is too classic. It is the largest existing royal garden site in China, and it embodies the fundamental concept of "harmony between man and nature" in China garden architecture. Yuanmingyuan is a collection of natural beauty in square inches. Although there are no mountains and vast waters, it can reveal China's landscape classics and occupy a prominent position in the world garden art. Secondly, the landscape is an easy-to-repair part of Yuanmingyuan. Intruders can only burn buildings, but they can't destroy the landscape layout. Although Yuanmingyuan was dug to fill the lake, it was easier to recover. If the gardeners in China can restore or even surpass the original design on the basis of scientific research and careful design, and restore the natural scenery to Hugo's "Moon Palace-like Wonderland", the Yuanmingyuan will attract the attention of the world and even future generations with greater attraction.
In the book Heart of Mountains and Rivers in China, I summed up the characteristics of Yuanmingyuan as follows: (1) It is naturally the reappearance of foreign teachers; According to local conditions, highlight the characteristics; Deliberately beautify and blend scenes; Enrich the space through comparison; Open and close, organize the sequence. Western gardens rose in the early days of capitalism and advocated that artificial beauty was higher than natural beauty. Outside the hedges and fountains, there are many plastic figures and natural trees trimmed to the shapes people need. Compared with China and the West, China gardens have their special value.
In fact, during the decades when the site was neglected (especially before the founding of New China), Qi Xin, an official and a citizen, worked together to dig three feet for treasure, and then cut down trees and move stones. Hundreds of farmers dug mountains to fill lakes and changed paddy fields. Fuhai, the largest water surface, no longer exists, and garbage is everywhere, stinking. After we put forward the initiative in the 1980 s, we dug Fuhai with the help of the voluntary labor of the PLA. Due to the rush of time, only the excavated soil was randomly piled up on the mountain, and then a large number of fast-growing trees were planted for outdoor sightseeing. In the future, we will further adjust the tree species, expand the water surface, transform the mountain shape and enrich and improve the ecology of the site through the research and design of landscape experts according to the plan. To restore the landscape plants in Yuanmingyuan, the premise is that each scenic spot should be well planned, scientifically studied, carefully designed and adjusted with plant configuration and landscape resources. For example, repairing Fuhai, which has been buried for many years, and planting trees and flowers in different gardens according to their original appearance can only improve the ecological scale of gardens and will not destroy the ecology.
Reporter: Can you imagine what function Yuanmingyuan will have if it is restored as planned? On the contrary, what will happen?
Wang Zhili: If the Yuanmingyuan is restored according to the principles of scientific planning and expert participation and the principle of combining protection, renovation and utilization, I personally have the following four ideas for the future of Yuanmingyuan: First, it will become a "world cultural memorial hall". (In fact, it can even become a museum of national humiliation, centering on the historical facts that the British and French allied forces invaded and burned the Yuanmingyuan, and all imperialist acts of invading China and destroying China's cultural relics are included in it. (2) Become the second exhibition center of the Forbidden City. At present, there are too many cultural relics in the Forbidden City to display. In fact, several generations of emperors in the Qing Dynasty spent more time in Yuanmingyuan than in the Forbidden City (Yuanmingyuan is also called the Summer Palace). I think it is entirely possible that the restored Yuanmingyuan will display the treasures that have not been seen by the world for a long time in the Forbidden City. 3. Become the research and exhibition center of traditional gardens in China. Fourth, become a witness of cultural exchanges between China and foreign countries. In this way, the site of Yuanmingyuan will become a special memorial site with rich contents to protect world culture. With these contents, it is easy to judge which is better than the site of Yuanmingyuan.
On the contrary, I am worried that Yuanmingyuan will become another entertainment and leisure place because it insists on maintaining the site (that is, it will not build any buildings in the park or arrange the original mountain water system and plant configuration). In the past seven years, the cultural relics department was not allowed to restore the buildings in the park, but once approved the Yuanmingyuan management office to spend 3 million yuan to hold a lantern festival. In fact, in the development of Yuanmingyuan, there has been a tendency of entertainment. Animals, photography, shops and other things that are extremely incompatible with the Yuanmingyuan site have all entered the park. As a result, Yuanmingyuan was finally entertained. We advocate that the site of Yuanmingyuan should be a special memorial site to protect world culture, not a general park, let alone a playground.
Reporter: Speaking of Yuanmingyuan, there is a widely concerned issue, that is, the recycling of cultural relics. What do you think of the relationship between cultural relics recycling and garden restoration?
Wang Zhili: After we put forward the initiative in the 1980s, the French government immediately sent an expert delegation to China to seek cooperation with us, with a friendly attitude. British newspapers also suggest what they should do. Now China has been carrying out reform and opening up for more than 20 years, and China's international status has also been greatly improved. The restoration of cultural relics cannot be avoided by renovation. Peking University and Zhongshan Park have the cultural relics of Yuanmingyuan. If Yuanmingyuan is not repaired, it is meaningless to let these places, which are more complete than Yuanmingyuan, return cultural relics, and it will also hinder the recovery of cultural relics from abroad. Therefore, I think that the scenery and basic activities of Yuanmingyuan should be restored, and the non-governmental organizations should come forward, with the approval of relevant state departments, negotiate with relevant countries through diplomatic channels, and gradually return them according to international law. In short, the restored Yuanmingyuan can prove that it is more meaningful to return cultural relics to their original owners.
Reporter: What should the relevant government departments do in the debate about whether the Yuanmingyuan should be repaired or not?
Wang Zhili: Recently, it has been widely reported in the media that there have been two or even three factions arguing about the repair and abolition of Yuanmingyuan. In my opinion, it is good to have an argument, but we can't lack the effective leadership of the decision-making body, and the discussion should be carried out under the premise of the leadership of the competent government departments. In the history of Yuanmingyuan, a milestone is that the Beijing Municipal Government promulgated the planning of Yuanmingyuan Ruins Park several years ago. However, in practice, the Yuanmingyuan Ruins Park Construction Committee, which should bear important responsibilities, has been lacking effective work for various reasons. Whether the Yuanmingyuan should be repaired should be discussed within the framework of the planning of Yuanmingyuan Ruins Park, and the existing laws and regulations should not be ignored.
Introduction to Wang Zhili: 95-year-old architect, the first president of Beijing Institute of Architecture, and one of the founders of China Yuanmingyuan Society, has been concerned about the protection and utilization of Yuanmingyuan for more than 30 years. (Dongcheng)
Yuanming New Garden is a theme park and has nothing to do with cultural relics.
Recently, the news that Hengdian will invest a huge sum of money to build Yuanming New Garden has been heated up on the Internet. Yuanmingyuan is a national key cultural relic protection unit. Can I clone at will? What does Yuanming New Garden have to do with it? The reporter consulted relevant documents and interviewed relevant departments and insiders.
The interview began with the reproduction of cultural relics. He, deputy director of the Policy and Regulation Department of National Cultural Heritage Administration, said that for immovable cultural relics, the state emphasizes the protection of the original site, and only the buildings restored on the original site according to the principle of "four original sites" are related to cultural relics.
Yuanming New Garden is not an original restoration or a cultural relic.
In the field of cultural relics, "copying" and "imitation" are two different concepts. According to Article 3 of the Interim Measures for the Administration of Cultural Relics Reproduction promulgated by National Cultural Heritage Administration in June 1998, "Cultural Relics Reproduction refers to the activity of copying the same products as the original cultural relics according to their volume, shape, decoration and texture."
Similar to the reproduction of cultural relics, the reproduction of ancient buildings is called "reconstruction", which is a different concept. According to Mr. Luo, an expert in ancient architecture, "reconstruction" refers to the use of raw materials and original techniques ("four yuan") according to the prototype system and original structure of cultural relics.
Both reproduction and reconstruction emphasize "authenticity", and the data used must be the real information from the original cultural relics. When Beijing rebuilt the Yongdingmen Gate Tower, Mr. Luo told reporters that the Yongdingmen Gate built on the original site according to the principle of "four sources" could be listed as a cultural relic. There is no such rigid requirement for "imitation" and "reconstruction", so the cultural relics produced are only works of art or souvenirs, and the buildings built are only antique buildings, but they are similar in appearance to cultural relics, and there is no historical value carried by any cultural relics at all.
After clarifying the concept, look at Hengdian's concept of Yuanming New Garden, and you will understand that this is just "imitation" and "reconstruction". In the future, no matter how similar the Yuanming New Garden is to the Yuanming Yuan recorded in historical materials, as long as it can't reach the "four original sites" and the original site, it is to build an ancient architecture theme park imitating Yuanming Yuan in a different place, which is essentially the same as the "splendid china" in Shenzhen and the "Chinese National Park" in Beijing. There are many representative buildings of ethnic minorities built in the proportion of 1: 1 in the "China National Park", and there are also many original buildings belonging to cultural relics protection units, such as the Dong Wind and Rain Bridge. But who will regard the wind and rain bridge here as a cultural relic? (Reporter Li Yun)
interconnection
In 2006, Zhejiang Hengdian Group announced that it would rebuild Yuanmingyuan in Hengdian. In order to distinguish it from the ruins in Beijing, Hengdian called it "Yuanming New Garden". Recently, the organizer officially announced in the name of Hengdian Economic Enterprise Federation that it has raised construction funds of165438+600 million yuan. It is expected to enter the formal construction stage in 2008. According to the historical features of Yuanmingyuan, a new Yuanmingyuan Garden covering an area of 6 156 mu will be rebuilt in five years with a total investment of 20 billion yuan. Among them, 6 billion yuan is used for preparatory work, land, planning and design, civil engineering, decoration and landscaping. 654.38+04 billion yuan will be used for the restoration, reproduction and purchase of cultural relics after completion. According to relevant sources, the construction funds of Hengdian Yuanming New Garden are mainly solved by raising funds from the society and attracting investment and shares.
Source: Guangming Daily February 27, 2007 65438+ Gong
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